more (yes) immigration

Because I know Katherine can’t get enough, here’s yet more on immigration. Kleinheider responds to my response.

Econ 101 would tell us that legal immigration is fine because these immigrants are subject to the same labor laws and whatnot as natives and that this is merely healthy competition and does no real damage to the economy. Those workers who are displaced have been so due to the refreshing and legal free market rumble. No harm, no foul.

But in the real world we know that immigrants new to this country are often just happy to be here and will work for less than natives.

There’s no evidence that I know of to support this claim, and if it exists, again, I’d like to see it. I think this idea stems from a myth about Mexico – that it’s some depraved economic Mad-Max wasteland, and everyone that manages to elude its clutches is forever ingratiated to the United States, and will clean any amount of toilets for peanuts to make up the debt they owe. But this is silly. Last time I checked, Mexico had more or less the same “free market” that we have here (with all its ups and downs. pun intended). Mexico has a fairly decent standard of living by international standards. The main reason that people migrate from the south have more to do with many market factors – where wage differences are but one:

… the probability of migration is related more to variation in real interest rates, which indicates the degree of access to capital and credit, than to expected wages. This is demonstrated by using data from Mexico to predict the yearly probability of migration to the United States from both the real interest rate in Mexico and the ratio of the wages an individual could expect to earn in the United States to the wages he or she could expect to earn in Mexico. As figure 5 illustrates, the effect of interest rates on the odds of U.S. migration is 5.6 times greater than that of relative wages. Other such analyses yield similar results.

AC continues:

With a constant stream of immigrants, there are always workers coming in and undercutting the American worker. If this were on a small scale with brief interludes that allowed the economy to absorb these immigrants, it would be fine, but we keep bringing people in.

Well, except that we don’t. We hardly let anyone in – that’s the problem. The “brief interludes” that jostle our labor markets are more due to labor law than economics.

There is nothing wrong with legal immigration but it has to be limited and there needs to be lulls to allow for the absorption of these workers into the economy and the culture.

Why does it need to be limited? I have never gotten a straight answer to this question.


Comments

Katherine CobleApril 14, 2006 at 06:55 · reply

I was beginning to worry. I hadn’t heard nearly enough about immigration in the last 24 hours.

We hardly let anyone in — that’s the problem.

Don’t kid yourself. Immigration over the last 20 years is more of a class issue than the anti-immigration people ever want to admit. The “reformed” immigration laws over the last 15 years were tailored to give preference to those with specialised skills and/or higher degrees of solvency. We let in bunches of people. If they can teach Japanese at the University level, operate on the hypothalamus or play chess at MIT.

Why does it need to be limited? I have never gotten a straight answer to this question.

The first quota on U.S. immigration was established in 1952. The country had been flooded for six years by refugees from WW2 Europe. We’d just fought a war against these people and there were a LOT of high tempers and anecdotal kerfluffels about returning GIs losing out on the good jobs to better-qualified men from Germany, Austria, Poland, etc. The isolationists were chafing at having any immigration at all, but the anti-communist and pro-Jewish lobbies fought tooth and nail to keep the U.S. as a sanctuary for displaced Europeans. Quotas were the compromise.

I’m not nearly as well-versed in Economics as others, so I’ll defer to them on that point.

Vol AbroadApril 14, 2006 at 08:31 · reply

Excellent post. There does seem to be a myth that everyone else in the world will crawl through broken glass to get to the US (though some clearly do take big risks). Huge swathes of population in the world have no desire to even visit Disneyworld, much less live and work in America.

As to Economics - if we believe if free markets - why not free labor markets as well?

And post 9/11, we’re not even letting in tons of those surgeons and MIT chess players, either. My husband - with a PhD and nine-year, obviously-real marriage to an American - faces over a year of nasty paperwork were we to try to move to America. (Though to be fair, America probably doesn’t need another lawyer)

Stormare MackeeApril 14, 2006 at 12:29 · reply

Why does it need to be limited? I have never gotten a straight answer to this question.

Perhaps you should ask the French. Didn’t work out too good. I’m all for controlled, legal immigration; it increases diversity, among other things – but we should learn from painful experiences in many European countries that now are facing the severe social and economical problems of decades of “open doors” immigration. Until now, the U.S. has “absorbed” immigrants, whose diverse cultures have integrated with the American mainstream. But now, Latino culture is starting in many areas compete with, or even overtake, the mainstream Anglo culture. I think we are concentrating on the economic effects and underestimating the social and cultural significance of this change. Another problem with Mexican immigration is that it’s basically the Mexican government shifting their social and political problems to the U.S. Unless conditions (in certain areas) south of the border change, we’ll be facing wave after wave of illegal immigrants, no matter how many times we grant the amnesty. We should first force – and help – the Mexican government to ensure that nobody needs to leave Mexico in order to make a living, and then do our best to accept those who really want to work in “jobs that Americans do not want”. How’s that?

KatherineApril 14, 2006 at 15:00 · reply

The French didn’t have open immigration in a bubble. That country operates from a very different economic and governmental basis in many ways. In addition, France is geographically more accessible than the U.S.

But now, Latino culture is starting in many areas compete with, or even overtake, the mainstream Anglo culture.

So what? Why is this a problem? There are still areas of Boston that are Irish through and through, areas of New York that are cultural havens for Jewish Orthodoxy. And ever hear of Chinatown?

We should first force — and help — the Mexican government to ensure that nobody needs to leave Mexico in order to make a living

Yeah, that’s absolutely nothing like “infringing on Mexico’s sovereignty” .

Regardless of how we handle immigration here (quotas or no), I’d just as soon not tinker with the Mexican government.

KatherineApril 14, 2006 at 15:03 · reply

(Though to be fair, America probably doesn’t need another lawyer)

Let’s make his nasty paperwork last for THREE years…

Seriously, though, the reality of practicing law in most parts of the U.S. right now is that of a SEVERE glut. We’ve got about 30% more lawyers than we truly need.

[rhymes with kerouac]April 14, 2006 at 17:16 · reply

“Mexico has a fairly decent standard of living by international standards.”

There’s a television in the lounge area of the Mission. After lunch every day the British soap opera “Coronation Street” comes on. I was struck recently by the realization that the actors look so… ordinary. They are not the obsessively beautiful people of the American soaps, where even the tough guys look like they stepped off the cover of GQ. I wonder if a good deal of this isn’t ethos, that America has presented itself as a shining beacon to the world, and where once that beacon represented high ideals it now communicates the irresistible lure of beauty, wealth, success, power and prestige and/or [insert metaphor of choice here]

As a Canadian I’m watching this from a comfortable distance, and - rightfully so - have no standing in the debate. I’m somewhat stunned by the intensity of the debate - never mind the scale - and am developing a growing respect for those trying to live out moral and compassionate values balanced with economic and political realities. So I want to be as respectful as I can when I say this… but… I wish America had much better leadership on this issue than what she’s experienced to date.

Vol AbroadApril 17, 2006 at 08:24 · reply

Let’s make his nasty paperwork last for THREE years…

I know or I’m assuming that that’s a lawyer joke. But that brings a point about immigration - it’s about real people with real lives. I immediately shuddered when I read that. I thought, what if my parents got sick and I had to move back and we had the financial difficulty of maintaining two households, never mind the emotional distress - and then years of nasty paperwork (which isn’t outside the realm of possibility).

Besides, my husband is about as mild-mannered a lawyer as they come, he only wants to train new lawyers. :-)

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