flags

You are a big giant stinky stupid head.

I drew the parallel in specific reference to this picture. Consider the text

If you think I’m “illegal” because I’m a Mexican learn the true history because I’m in my homeland

I recognize that there are several ways this can be interpreted, but it would appear to assert directly that Los Angeles is (or should be) part of Mexico, which points to the whole Aztlan nonsense.

Flying a Mexican flag? Innocuous.

Flying a Mexican flag and referencing a Greater North Mexican Co-Prosperity Sphere (Aztlan) incorporating Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and southern California? Equivalent to flying a Confederate flag and muttering about how the South will rise again.

I think that interpretation’s a stretch. A more innocuous interpretation is the general advocacy of social justice in general.

The sentence contains the assertions “I’m a Mexican” and “I’m in my homeland”. This directly implies that Los Angeles is part of Mexico, in some sense, whether that’s the intention or not.

There is nothing in the statement that invokes “social jsutice”, explicitly or implicitly. You’re the one stretching here.

“I’m a Mexican” == “I am from Mexico, which once, in fact, included this very place.” “I’m in my homeland” == “I have as much a right to be here as you do.”

That is another valid reading.

I don’t understand where you’re making the leap to “social justice”, though.

“Social justice” == “protest to oppose and invalidate legislation that criminalizes my presence”

Take a look at this page. It looks like my interpretation was closer to the mark than yours.

Looks like it .. I wonder what size their group was at the rally? Looks like a pretty small contingent..

There was certainly no-one from their group represented that I saw on Wednesday..

They are not, they stress, Aztlanist, although they seem to differ from them mostly in questions of vocabulary and similar ideological niceties. Looks like more post-Trotskyist sectarian splitting.

I doubt that they’re all that significant; they seem to be trying to puff themselve up as more important than they really are. Note all the captions that basically say “LOOK! PEOPLE AGREE WITH US!!!”

Still in a moral class with Confederate revivalists, though.

t. rev, there’s no use in arguing with him. Until he opens his mind and his heart, he will never change.

The Confederate flag was a a flag of rebellion. It represented a revolution, not a nationality. It represented a cause, not representation.

So, I’m given to understand that you have not heard of the Confederate States of America? That would be the nation represented by this flag for 4 years.

Oh, T Rev sorry. It’s only funny if you’ve read Glen Dean’s critique. Otherwise, I just look like an idiot.

My point is to highlight the historical context of the flag and how flying that flag differs from flying a flag at a rally such as the one on Wednesday.

When you see the flags of Mexico, Puerto Rico, Guatemala, or Israel (all of which I saw on Wednesday), you aren’t seeing them flown, for the most part (see above), by people that wish to forcibly re-instate or claim the United States for that country’s flag. Nor does it mean they are saying “I am flying this flag because I support everything that Mexico stands for”. I mean, clearly, they don’t think that highly of Mexico. They left, after all.

For the most part, they’re just proud of their culture.

So, on to the rebel flag. Was the Confederate States of America in its 4 years around for long enough to develop a culture? Well, sure, and it represented a culture established long before the Confederacy. But let’s be clear: the Confederacy was a movement, and a revolutionary one, that supported specific goals. The flag represented both this movement and the Confederacy that it briefly bound together. It was a movement that supported slavery and racism.

So, in the time since that movement and the end of that confederacy, what are we left to conclude the intent in flying the flag is? Is it to say “I am from the Confederate States of America and proud of it”? Well, no. The Confederacy doesn’t exist anymore. So what is the goal?

You brought up semiotics over at Glen’s post, so I think you can see where I am going with this. Much as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is meaning. You may contend that by flying the Confederate flag, you are representing Southern Heritage. But other people – I’d contend far and away a majority – don’t see it that way. They know what the Confederacy represented, and the bloody and terrible uses to which the Confederate flag has been employed in the years since.

So, if you want to fly the confederate flag, knowing full well that that is what most people think (that you support racism, essentially) of your decision, that’s fine, but you can’t really protest too much. The confederate flag is a racist symbol, like it or not.

If you want to represent your Southern heritage, fly the Tennessee flag. Or make your own new Southern heritage flag, maybe it will catch on. Symbols are worthless if they don’t communicate what you are trying to communicate. They’re harmful if they communicate something different than what you intend.

Oh, OK. I know Chris from elsewhere, I am not involved with this Tennessee blogging mafia you guys have.

When you see the flags of Mexico, Puerto Rico, Guatemala, or Israel (all of which I saw on Wednesday), you aren’t seeing them flown, for the most part (see above), by people that wish to forcibly re-instate or claim the United States for that country’s flag. Nor does it mean they are saying “I am flying this flag because I support everything that Mexico stands for”. I mean, clearly, they don’t think that highly of Mexico. They left, after all.

And on the other hand, you have the guys who were flying the Mexican flag directly above an upside-down US flag, as pictured on that site. HMM NO THEY ARE JUST POLITELY STANDING UP FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE THAT’S IT

I thought we agreed they were a minority.

So, I’m given to understand that you have not heard of the Confederate States of America? That would be the nation represented by this flag for 4 years.

Actually, the flag Wage pictures and the one most used as the Confederate Flag today is the Battle Flag. So, the flag pictured is not the flag that represented the Confederate nation so much as “The Cause” or the war effort.

f you want to represent your Southern heritage, fly the Tennessee flag. Or make your own new Southern heritage flag, maybe it will catch on.

To be clear, I’m most definitely not from the South, nor do I have any inclination to fly any type of flag that would indicate that I am. I’m just being contrary.

And, to Kleinheider’s point, who knew that the Confederacy had about 90,000 different flags? No wonder they lost the war. They couldn’t even decide on their colors.

But back to my being contrary….yes, to most people that flag (Confederate Flag #096788, Jailhouse Tattoo Edition) connotes racism. It’s both implied and inferred. Fine.

In the same way, many people consider the Mexican flag to connote seperatism, defiance of U.S. Law, etc. That may NOT be what the flagwavers mean, but the inferrence is there. That’s the danger (as I keep saying over and over again) of adopting semiotic forms of communication.

The libertarian in me says “fly whatever flag you want, as long as you’re aware of the varied ramifications. It’s your right.” As that philosophy applies to the current Mexican flag thing—sure, you’re proud of your heritage, but you want people to be accepting of you. Maybe you ought to try that time-honoured tack of “going along to get along”. Be proud of your heritage, but when you’re trying to win a legal point for yourself about staying in a country you’ve entered and remain in illegally it’s probably best not to be cheeky about it.

When I said “you”, I just meant the hypothetical “you”..

Be proud of your heritage, but when you’re trying to win a legal point for yourself about staying in a country you’ve entered and remain in illegally it’s probably best not to be cheeky about it.

I don’t think they’re being cheeky about it. American flags easily outnumbered any others 2-1 at the rally I went to. I mean, we could debate the psychology and intent of each person that chose to bring their nationality’s flag, but taken as a whole, the mix of flags is best taken as advocacy as a multi-cultural populace.

Hi folks, browsing subject. I beleive protests are becoming more sinister. Radical groups are using emotional young students for numbers. Take a look at www.wehategringos.com for an eye opener. Some of the rallies in CA included rock throwing, burning the american flag. I am shocked and disgusted. Why isn’t this stuff put on TV? I don’t think the youngsters realize how dangerous this is becoming and of course the radicals love it. The rallies in CA looked like Hamas protests on Al Jazeera the only thing missing was the AK47’s.

Take a look at www.wehategringos.com for an eye opener.

It was eye-opening, I guess. Except that as a right-wing person I’ve had enough people make videos of the 10 crackpots who blow up abortion clinics that say “oooh Look at the RIGHT WING MURDERERS”. Every movement has a fringe element. As abhorrent as these people are, I didn’t get the feel that they were in the majority at any of the protests.

Of course, I still think they have broken the law and need to be penalised. Fines, baby, fines.

As for all of this “Aztlan is on the move” bullshit, let’s be honest. They can have it back. In the same state it was before someone else came in and built a prosperous transcontinental railroad, followed by a lucrative highway system, all symbiotic with thriving industries. They can have the hardscrabble wasteland peppered by infighting, clan warfare and poverty that they either sold or lost to conquest.

Will they want it in such condition? No.

It’s like the wicked stepsisters in Cinderalla. They didn’t want the old sash or the crummy beads until the mice came in and made it into a beautiful gown. Then they were all “give me my ribon! give me my beads!” Bitches.

I am an American, born and raised in San Antonio, Texas. Now my ancestors are from Mexico, i’m not! If in fact any illegal wants to live in the good ol’ USA fine!, but fix your papers, stop your whinning; Ive heard and seen so many illegals say that they have lived here for 8,9,10 years, out of all that time they coudn’t fix their freakin’ papers and become U.S. citizens already?! As any american I stand by our president and goverment,although that’s another debate issue. By the way I’m a Rebel by heart and that’s exactly what the confederate flag sends out, Stand up for yourself and opinion because nobody else will. As for the racism part, well we can easily say that the mexican flag stands for drugs and unwanted baby sales.

As for the racism part, well we can easily say that the mexican flag stands for drugs and unwanted baby sales.

You could, but that would be pretty stupid.

Your Right there are far more 3rd world countries with way more drugs.

actually, if you are not a Native American, your “homeland” is Spain, so it seems YOU need to learn your history as well

The confederate flag represented a nation from 1860-1865.. The Confederate States of America… but moreso today it’s just a symbol of the South. For southerners who are proud of the heritage that their families fought for. And someone saying “well, they’re proud of the CSA, that means they’re against this country..” No. I fly a confederate flag and I LOVE the USA, it sickens me that liberal assholes talk bad about it all over TV.

Like I said, it’s just a symbol of the south, not of racism. I’m all for equal rights… The flag’s meaning has changed, the slogan “Heritage, Not Hate” is the truth. I love my country, I love my heritage, and I don’t hate a single person, except maybe Michael Moore.

(sidenote: That whole “hip-hop gangsta” crowd, regardless of color, deserve whatevers comin to em.)

The thing that gets me is that all of these hispanic people are coming over into the nation, some legally, some illegally, and alot of them want to defend their nation as being better than this one… (this is only from personal experience, I’m sure not all of them think this way.)

If your damn country is so great, go on back. I don’t mind if you stay here, but get some nationalism. Obviously it wasn’t THAT good.

The confederate flag should be flown high and proud! It is part of our history wether you like it or not. I am proud of my heritage and if your fuckin country is so great go fly your mexican flag there. English is our language not spanish or spanglish. Get your papers or get the fuck out.